Before you read on, if you haven’t seen The Hobbit: The Battle of The Five Armies and don’t want to spoil it for yourself, come back when you’ve seen it.
If you have seen the film, or feel confident you can handle a bit of a spoiler, read on.
Literally the day after I saw the film I got this question via email from Emily: Early in the movie we see our favorite hottie dwarf Kili say something in Khuzdul (or is it Elvish?) to Tauriel. I think I’ve got a good idea what he is saying to her, but want to be sure. Can you tell me what he says to her?
Emily wasn’t the only one sending me this question, as I got many similar ones in the hours that followed.
So, without further ado, this is my view on that line.
Kíli says to Tauriel “amrâlimê”, which I’m pretty sure is David Salo’s Neo-Khuzdul. Tauriel says she doesn’t understand it, so it’s very clear it isn’t Sindarin.
I believe the word consists of three parts “amrâl”, “im” and “ê”
“amrâl” – means “love”. It used the abstract construction aCCâC as seen in the Tolkien original khuzdul words such as “aglâb”. The radicals in amrâl, MRL are faintly reminiscent of the Quenya “melmë” (love) and “mírima” (very lovely), and of the Sindarin “meleth” (love), while also hinting at the latin “amorem” (love).
“im” – Updated: based on a screenshot from the video Appendices for DoS, provided by one of the readers of this blog (thank you Maite), it seems clear this is a genitive marker, indicating “of”. So, likely not a female indicator as previously assumed.
“ê” – is the first person possessive pronoun “my”, also use for “me”.
Putting all of this together we get “love-of-me”
So, as a result we get: “My Love”
Again, this is my assumption based on Salo’s earlier writings, provided screenshots from the video Appendices for DoS (with thanks to Maite) and my study of neo-khuzdul.
I hope we’ll get it confirmed in the days and weeks to come.
I hope that answers your question Emily.
Your translation makes sense; even without doing your breakdown, the context heavily indicates he’s saying something to that effect. Not to question your translation, but would it mean something different or make more sense if broken down as “amrâl”, “i” and “mê” instead?
“ê” is the attested version for “my” according to Salo. While “mê” is the familiar (if not disrespectful) second person form. See http://midgardsmal.com/the-serendipity-of-error/
“Therefore I conclude that astun is the respectful 2nd person plural, and mên is the familiar (if not disrespectful!) 2nd person plural, probably with mê as a singular form.”
So I would think it extremely strange if it were amrâl-i-mê as mê would indicate a rather disrespectful tone toward Tauriel. Nor would it make much sense I think to use this second person form linked to this noun. Hence my idea that it is amrâl-im-ê (my love).
I think I remember you remarking something similar about “disrespectful” tones or word usage in a discussion with khuzdul4u on tumblr, and I’d like to point out that while that form may be disrespectful, it also indicates intimacy or familiarity. In the way that Japanese names can be said without the obligatory -san/-chan/-kun etc suffix if the people are intimate, close, or comfortable with one another, I believe that if Kili was baring his heart at this point then he wouldn’t stick to the formal form of language in his confession.
[I pretty much accept and trust your explanation and breakdown anyway but it’s something to consider, and I feel like from that standpoint the “familiar” version of the word or phrase can still apply in intimate or familiar setups]
Thanks so much for the translation, btw! Always a treat to read your stuff and learn new things.
I’ve since posted a new document on the blog about these respectful forms (doc 42) feel free to have a look.
I had to watch that scene over a few times but the second time I saw the film, I kind of picked that up as well. It was either that or ‘I love you’ but ‘my love’ makes sense. Besides, I’m pretty sure he was saying ‘I love you’ as he was dying
I have the same question about this scene. I would like very much to know if he says “my love” or “amrâlimê”.
Hello. Thak you for your post was really helpful. I have a question, how does amrâlimê is written?? Using the right letters. Thanks again.
That would depend on the mode of writing really [Erebor, Moria or Futhark (as used in The Hobbit) runes].
Have a look at document 26 (alphabet) on https://dwarrowscholar.wordpress.com/khuzdul/documents-dictionaries/ that would give you an idea of the runes used in Erebor and Moria writing mode.
So a female saying it to a male, would it be slightly different, using a masculine marker?
If indeed a female marker (yet to be confirmed by Salo), the male equivalent would likely be “um”, as male marker usually use “u”, while female markers use “i”. Which would make it “amrâlumê”.
Do you happen to know why the lyrics for ‘Feast of Starlight’ are said to be both in Khuzdul and Elvish but the said Khuzdul part is nowhere to be found on the internet? They explain this on the Appendices videos of DoS and they show some parts of the lyrics with both languages but then there’s no trace of the full thing. Any clue? Thank you!
I’m sorry to say I haven’t heard of this. When I search for it on the net it I do find the elvish lyrics, but that’s it I’m afraid. Let us hope the fully lyrics will be released as some point.
Reblogged this on Girl on Fire.
Hello! On a slightly unrelated note, I would like to ask for a translation of the Khuzdul lyrics in “Beyond the Forest”. According to the Desolation of Smaug sheet music I have, the lyrics are as follows:
” Kûr yamsi tân yamarsibiyê? Ankakizi ni adâlimê… Îmriri, Zaizi.”
The vast majority of the roots used in these words are completely unknown to me unfortunately, nor have I seen them previously in any of Salo’s neo-khuzdul writings. Some of the words however do not make much sense from a neo-khuzdul construction point of view. I think it might be best to wait for a full transcript of the lyrics from Salo on this.
I understand completely. Thanks so much for all you do!
Sorry for stepping in, but the video Appendices for DoS do have some information on this. They are the source for my comment before about the two languages in a song, but in the video they are talking about ‘Feast of Starlight’ and not ‘Beyond the Forest’, which just makes it all more confusing. We just don’t have the full lyrics for any of the songs. But in the following screencap you can see one of the phrases Michele attached. I do believe the question part means something as ‘Where do you go when you depart form me?’ (you can see that phrase at the top of the picture). And the rest you can read it. There is also a reference to ‘imri zaiza’ but not what Michele wrote, and they translate that as ‘take me with you’. That is all I know and I hope we can get the full lyrics sometime. Here’s the screencapture:
Don’t be sorry at all Maite, quite on the contrary. You’ve given me a very good source to work with, thank you so much. And it seems the “i” in amrâlimê is not the female marker but a genitive marker (of), based on this text, still the translation would remain “my love” of course. I have the extended edition of DoS but didn’t notice that bit in the appendices before. I know what I will be looking at again this evening 🙂 I’ll see to update some of the documentation to support this translation in the weeks to come (after I’ve done a bit more research). Thank you again.
Thank you for that screencap, Maite! I haven’t gotten to that part in the appendices yet, and that satisfied my curiosity. 🙂
I analyzed it based on David Salo’s latest blog posts, and I am getting it as a verb, presumably “I love you”. (sorry, no accents) In his verb conjugation example, ZRB becomes azrabi, so I believe MRL could become amrali. So it would be amrali + me, and he has written that -men would be “upon you (plural)” in his modified Khuzdul, so perhaps -me is singular, just like in verbs, where -n is the ending of plurals? I am no linguist, though.
I had considered this could be a conjugated imperfect myself at first, but eventually couldn’t agree with it. I had three reasons for this. Firstly, the extended vowel “â”. Like the orginal “aglâb”, this pattern fits. There is no extended vowel in the imperfect first person. Secondly, “mên” and the singular “me” are used as disrespectful forms according Salo, so perhaps unlikely. And lastly, in a song lyric that was used for the Desolation of Smaug also uses this exact pattern – aCâC*-im-ê (adâlimê / *a bi-radical) returns, translated as “dreams of me (my dream)”. If it were “amralimê” I would perhaps agree with you, but seeing that it is “amrâlimê”, I remain convinced this is “(love of me) my love”.
I agree with form “….-of-me”. But the word amral is a question: using “aglâb” or “adâl” as an example of structure we still don’t have word “love” in Salo’s or original Khuzdul. But it’s other original word amrad (death) included the radical MR, which is often used by David in songs or actor text.
What do you think about this?
The radicals MRD (as used in amrâd/amrad) are different to those of amrâl (MRL). Sure, the word itself only differs one letter, but a very important one. I remain convinced that amrâl is “love” though. But who knows of course.
Hello, I was wondering if I could have a translation of “Plant Your Trees” as Thorin says to Bilbo in the neo-khuzdul and the erebors form? I have been trying to translate it myself, but I do not know if I am doing it correctly.
“imjid zarâszu” would be one way of translating it, though that is in the imperative form, so might be a bit of a commanding tone. If it is more of a suggestion, which I believe is the case, you might consider using the jussive form “majudsu zarâszu”.
Thank you very much for your help.
Hey, i’ve been following you for some time, and i was interested if you are going to make a thread about the war cries or whatever they are, the one that Dain’s folk shout to each other, Ghân Nan Duregnul if im not wrong, but there are also others in the movie, and i’ve been pretty interested…
Anyway, thank you for the continuous “studies” (if we can call them like that?) about khuzdul, it helps out alot, and you are great, your Neo-Khuzdul more than fits with Prof. Tolkien’s (many times even better than Salos, but dont tell him that, shhh)
I’ve tried to pick up on every word said during the film and frankly have given up on it, as it is almost impossible to understand all with the sound effects at full blast in the cinema. So I will study these closer when the film is released for purchase. At least this way I can rewind at leisure 🙂
Thank you for the analysis!! It’s so detailed and really helps me a lot.
Btw, in the movie when the werewarm came out, after Thorin said they’re not going to join the battle, the frame switched back to Dain and he said something Khuzdul. The second word sounds like “Bekâr” to me, but the first word’s still a mystery. Do you happen to know that?
There is quite a bit of neo-khuzdul in the last film, though unfortunately not all of it is very clear. In fact most of it is not clear at all. So I’m waiting for the DVD/Blue-ray so I can spend some more time on it.
Could you please please please help me? (Sorry wasn’t sure where to write this question and i couldn’t attach a photograph!)
For the song between Fili and Tauriel, ‘A Feast of Starlight’ I noticed in the DoS behind the scenes ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odwkgBDO8Qo – at 3:00) there is the Khuzdul translation “îmri zaiza” meaning “take me with you” but the Khuzdul lyrics do not correspond with the Futhark runes that they use in the movies (shown above the Khuzdul lyrics). The runes at 3:00, using Futhark translate to “imiri zaizi” yet it clearly states the Khuzdul lyrics are “îmri zaiza.” Do you know if they used yet another alphabet (as it is clearly not Angerthas Erebor or Moria) or can tell me why there are non-corresponding characters?
I am confused, i thought that it may be to do with the phonetic transliteration, or written pronunciation. But i would much appreciate your advice on this. Is it just me, or am i missing something here?
Also to help if you needed the full lyrics. Sorry if there is any misspelling, I gathered this from notes and the behind the scenes. (E-elvish/K-Khuzdul):
Hae ephadron / theri thaur
am na dhû / ias fir i ambar
A trehil i ‘alad ‘lân uir tri ‘wilith”
Kûr yamsi / tân yamarsi biyiei
Ankakizi ni adâlimê
(E)I go walking / Beyond the forest
(K)Take me with you
(E)Up into the night(/) where the world falls away /
(E)And the white light of forever fills the air
(K) Where do you go / when you leave me?
(K) I see you, in my dreams
(K)But you are far away
Thankyou so much for your time :)
I’ve seen the same thing in fact. According to neo-khuzdul established grammar it should be “imiri zaizi” (not îmri zaiza), so the runes are actually correct, it is the translation that seems to be mistaken.
Is it possible that Kíli’s proclamation was more than simply “my love,” but was actually telling her she was “the love of his [life]?” I see from the “Who’s the Bride?” (WTB) post (https://dwarrowscholar.wordpress.com/2013/04/11/whos-the-bride-dwarven-marriage/) that core facts indicate dwarves choose only one love for life. If Kíli is “choosing” Tauriel, this is almost as powerful as Arwen choosing Aragorn – choosing a mortal life as only few elves have the “gift” to do so. And as Elves have a similar partnering for life, with a phrase for it (Mela en’ coiamin), Tauriel is basically being told he has betrothed himself to her for the rest of his life.
If this is in essence what “Amrâlimê” was meant to convey, Kíli’s final act of love was to “marry” Tauriel. From the same “WTB” post, dwarves may marry by money, consummation, or contract. While a dwarven woman would “choose” her love (and never marry if he did not reciprocate), Kíli is in love with an elf-maid. He doesn’t know if she will choose him, or how this is to work, so he has to make her the offer. He makes his contract with her by proclaiming “Amrâlimê,” and before leaving, he “seals the marriage” with a promise and the greatest consideration he has, his rune stone.
To quote WTB:
“To satisfy the requirements of acquisition by wealth, the sum of acquisition must belong to the groom. It cannot be borrowed, although it can be a gift from a relative (in most cases the parents of the groom). It must be given to the wife irrevocably. In addition, the value must be known to the wife, so that there can be no claim that the husband deceived her into marrying by misleading her as to its value.”
It was the only thing of value he had in the world, and she knew exactly what value it carried. He didn’t know if he’d ever see her again, if he’d live another day, week, year or 250 years, but he gave her his promise of love for life. A most special promise and priceless gift.
Who knows… Indeed, nicely put.
From several D.Salo articles on his site midgardsmal.com (The serendipity of error, Paradixis):
if m-r-l = “love” maybe from Primitive Elvish/Valarin root MER- “wish, desire, want” from The Etymologies,
or metathesis m-l-r=m-r-l from root MEL- love
a12a3i – imperfect 1 person (I love)
mê – pronoun 3 person singular familiar you (early in pronouns paradigm it was 1 person plural “we”)
Summary: I love (desire?) you.
It could be recognized from context.
But say it to Elven maiden in Dwarvish (not Elvish or Common) – it is not clever thing.
I think I’ve mentioned this before, but here’s my view on the topic…
Firstly, the thing is that he doesn’t say “amralimê”, he says “amrâlimê”, and there is a world of difference.
Amralimê could indeed be seen as an imperfect form, though there is no reason at all that there would be an extented “â” in there.
This extended â is clearly using the noun structure as seen in aglâb.
Secondly, in one of the songs from the Desolation of Smaug the structure of noun-imê is seen and there is also translates without doubt as … -of me.
So I think that’s enough evidence to believe it indeed is “my love (love of mine)” instead of “I love you”.
Thank you so much for the great insight!
I recently came across a word , of which my friend suggested was also a romantic dwarvish word like , and it means “treasure of all treasures”. But when I looked it up in the Neo-Khuzdul dictionary I couldn’t find anything, except that means “displeasure of all displeasures”. Could you please give us your opinion on this?
It would either be “gabshel” or “bunnel”, depending if you would mean treasure as wealth, or a store of money in reserve. In this case I would believe “bunnel” might be best. Though in older versions of my neo-khuzdul dictionaries it is possible that you saw other variants (which I now have dubbed BMK – Blue Mountain Khuzdul – a convenient way to ensure the older version isn’t stamped as incorrect by myself).
Hello everyone! SO, BOTFA came out yesterday, and I’ve already watched my copy twice. (^_^) I was watching closely the second time, and during Kili’s death scene, 😭, I payed close attention to his last words. His last words weren’t “Tauriel!”, his last words were, “I Love You” TO Tauriel!!! Did you guys notice this to?!?
Hi to everyone!
I have a question about the translation of the lyrics of “beyond the forest “. I haven’t found a complete translation and I would know specially the correct meaning of the last phrase ” an kakiziad ” that I would tattoo…
so this is the full lyrics that I have found:
A, meleth nín, û naed hathog hûn ní’n.
A trehil i’alad ‘Iân uir tri ‘wilith nín.
Kûr yam si tân yam ar sibiyê?
An kakizi ni adâlimê Ahh.
A, meleth nín, û naed hathog
A, meleth nín, û Îmir i.
Am na dhû ias fîri ambar
A, meleth nín, û nín.
Kûr yam si tân ya, An kakiziad.
Hae ephadron ther i thaur, am na.
Han ú an Kûr yam si tân ya, An kakiziad.
If you can help me I will thanks you for ever!!!
Apologies for the late reply on this comment.
I’ve seen various versions of these lyrics and some seem more accurate then others.
The version you’ve pasted in your question seems to be one of those I believe may have several flaws in them.
For one, quite a few of these phrase have spaces where they shouldn’t have one.
For instance: “An kakiziad”, should likely be “Ankakizi”, which is “I look at you (I see you) – directed at a female individual”.
I wanted to do a tattoo of Amralime together with Imri Zaiza. Can you please write it correctly for me in dwarwish, coz I don’t wanna be stuck with wrong thing for the rest of my life as tattoo 😀 Thank you
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I believe I covered this via email, if not, please send me an email – head over HERE for details to get in touch
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Um hi, short question here…
Since the “im” has been debunked as a female marker, would a female also say “amrâlimê”?
I would be very grateful if you could answer me 🙂
Indeed, there would be no difference here on gender.
Hi! Please, can anybody tell if Kili said the same term ‘amrâlimê’ to Tauriel when he’s dying? He seems to say something, but it is inaudible, not enough to appear legend. I love the movie, I’m Brazilian, and although I understand little English, I do not know if he says something in another language, or made the same statement to her. Thank you answers!
Please, could someone please answer my question? I’m very anxious to know what he’s talking about, at the end of his scene. Thank you very much!
I’ve looked at it a few times again, but I can’t make out any word. It seems like he is trying to say “amrâlimê”, (judging by the way he moves his lips) but can’t. Clearly, the sound isn’t there though and all that is pronounced are some breaths of air.
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Thanks for the reply. I had also checked the same scene a number of times to be certain, observing the way he moves his lips, but I came to the same conclusion that he tries to say something and can not, and apparently is the same as he had already said to Tauriel before – amrâlimê. What is evident is only the sound of his breath before he dies. Thank you very much for the feedback.